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]]> Comment on Programming Language in a Web Page: The Conundrum by vincent http://www.neilmix.com/2008/05/20/programming-language-in-a-web-page-the-conundrum/#comment-136 vincent Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:53:28 +0000 http://www.neilmix.com/?p=41#comment-136 I’ve since learned new programming techniques to mitigate the problem I set out to solve... Would you be able to share some of these with the user comunity? Thanks, Vincent I’ve since learned new programming techniques to mitigate the problem I set out to solve…

Would you be able to share some of these with the user comunity?

Thanks,
Vincent

]]> Comment on Threading in JavaScript 1.7 by sajeev http://www.neilmix.com/2007/02/07/threading-in-javascript-17/#comment-128 sajeev Sat, 31 May 2008 03:01:56 +0000 http://www.neilmix.com/2007/09/09/threading-in-javascript-17/#comment-128 can this thread library work with IE........please reply can this thread library work with IE……..please reply

]]> Comment on Programming Language in a Web Page: The Conundrum by Kris Zyp http://www.neilmix.com/2008/05/20/programming-language-in-a-web-page-the-conundrum/#comment-121 Kris Zyp Wed, 21 May 2008 02:42:50 +0000 http://www.neilmix.com/?p=41#comment-121 Great points Neil. I wanted to throw a few thoughts out there as well, since I have also spent a good deal of effort (much of it alongside you) in the "PLIAWP" world. I think there is perhaps a fuzzy area, does translation == PLIAWP? Narrative JavaScript of course did not really intend to be a new language, rather it intended to be JavaScript, with an minimal syntax to achieve the goal of adding coroutines. IMO, the problem with NJS is more cost/benefit ratio. NJS produced very large slow translated code for the benefit that was derived. On the other hand if PLIAWP==translation, one could also categorize JavaScript minification along with NJS compilation. Both take JavaScript (or close to it) and output JavaScript. However, compressing JavaScript is immensely popular, more so than Processing will probably ever hope to be. But of course compression does not actually (hopefully) change any behavior, and so maybe that doesn't fit into your category. More to the point (which I think compressing JavaScript illustrates), I don't think I necessarily agree with requirements #1 and #2. It not necessarily bad to convert something that is very similar (or is) JavaScript to run-anywhere JavaScript. But this is where your point is very valid: If you converting something very similar to JavaScript, than it probably is not significantly superior to JavaScript, so there is much less benefit to weigh against the cost. However, if costs are sufficiently low (and costs often can be low if language is very JavaScript-ish), conversion may still be worth it. There are a couple other important projects that are good case studies: ADsafe and Google Caja. ADsafe is a slightly different language (a subset to be precise). One of the advantages of ADsafe is there is zero translation. Once an ADsafe compliant script has been validated (on server or client) it can be used as any other script, no translation, no debugging headaches, etc. Here I think costs are quite low, and the benefits could indeed outweigh the costs. Of course, Caja is another important project, however I believe there translated code is very similar to NJS in terms of size and slowness. Another future project that seems almost inevitable to appear some point is ES4 (or some part of it) -> ES3 translation. I could see using type annotations for purely static analysis and having them stripped out for the browser as a relatively low cost translation with some nice benefits. Anyway, I do generally agree with you, NJS (and Strands) were fun projects, NJS-level translation is really costly, and for the vast majority of applications, I and most other developers really like to debug code basically in the same form as we wrote it. I too have moved on. BTW, I am curious what "new programming techniques to mitigate the problem I set out to solve" you have learned? Great points Neil. I wanted to throw a few thoughts out there as well, since I have also spent a good deal of effort (much of it alongside you) in the “PLIAWP” world. I think there is perhaps a fuzzy area, does translation == PLIAWP? Narrative JavaScript of course did not really intend to be a new language, rather it intended to be JavaScript, with an minimal syntax to achieve the goal of adding coroutines. IMO, the problem with NJS is more cost/benefit ratio. NJS produced very large slow translated code for the benefit that was derived. On the other hand if PLIAWP==translation, one could also categorize JavaScript minification along with NJS compilation. Both take JavaScript (or close to it) and output JavaScript. However, compressing JavaScript is immensely popular, more so than Processing will probably ever hope to be. But of course compression does not actually (hopefully) change any behavior, and so maybe that doesn’t fit into your category.
More to the point (which I think compressing JavaScript illustrates), I don’t think I necessarily agree with requirements #1 and #2. It not necessarily bad to convert something that is very similar (or is) JavaScript to run-anywhere JavaScript. But this is where your point is very valid: If you converting something very similar to JavaScript, than it probably is not significantly superior to JavaScript, so there is much less benefit to weigh against the cost. However, if costs are sufficiently low (and costs often can be low if language is very JavaScript-ish), conversion may still be worth it.
There are a couple other important projects that are good case studies: ADsafe and Google Caja. ADsafe is a slightly different language (a subset to be precise). One of the advantages of ADsafe is there is zero translation. Once an ADsafe compliant script has been validated (on server or client) it can be used as any other script, no translation, no debugging headaches, etc. Here I think costs are quite low, and the benefits could indeed outweigh the costs.
Of course, Caja is another important project, however I believe there translated code is very similar to NJS in terms of size and slowness.
Another future project that seems almost inevitable to appear some point is ES4 (or some part of it) -> ES3 translation. I could see using type annotations for purely static analysis and having them stripped out for the browser as a relatively low cost translation with some nice benefits.
Anyway, I do generally agree with you, NJS (and Strands) were fun projects, NJS-level translation is really costly, and for the vast majority of applications, I and most other developers really like to debug code basically in the same form as we wrote it. I too have moved on.
BTW, I am curious what “new programming techniques to mitigate the problem I set out to solve” you have learned?

]]> Comment on Projects by Neil Mix » Blog Archive » Programming Language in a Web Page: The Conundrum http://www.neilmix.com/projects/#comment-118 Neil Mix » Blog Archive » Programming Language in a Web Page: The Conundrum Tue, 20 May 2008 05:02:16 +0000 http://www.neilmix.com/projects/#comment-118 [...] Projects [...] [...] Projects [...]

]]> Comment on Things “They” Don’t Tell You About Caring For a Newborn by Cheap Baby Cribs http://www.neilmix.com/2007/06/25/things-they-dont-tell-you-about-caring-for-a-newborn/#comment-104 Cheap Baby Cribs Sat, 26 Apr 2008 01:25:51 +0000 http://www.neilmix.com/2007/06/25/things-they-dont-tell-you-about-caring-for-a-newborn/#comment-104 That scared the sh*t out of me. Being a future father. LOL. Nice article. That scared the sh*t out of me. Being a future father. LOL. Nice article.

]]> Comment on Beyond DOM by Brett Morgan http://www.neilmix.com/2008/01/06/beyond-dom/#comment-103 Brett Morgan Thu, 24 Apr 2008 05:09:30 +0000 http://www.neilmix.com/2008/01/06/beyond-dom/#comment-103 Mmm. Feels to me like what we really need is a transformation engine. Mmm. Feels to me like what we really need is a transformation engine.

]]> Comment on Winter Daze by Brian http://www.neilmix.com/2008/02/26/winter-daze/#comment-100 Brian Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:53:44 +0000 http://www.neilmix.com/2008/02/26/winter-daze/#comment-100 Wow! On the plus side, you probably now have arms like an action figure. Seeing those photos reminded me what winter is supposed to look like. We had a whopping four inches of snow the other week (the first time in ages) and people acted like it was the end of the world... Wow! On the plus side, you probably now have arms like an action figure.

Seeing those photos reminded me what winter is supposed to look like. We had a whopping four inches of snow the other week (the first time in ages) and people acted like it was the end of the world…

]]> Comment on Winter Daze by Kris Zyp http://www.neilmix.com/2008/02/26/winter-daze/#comment-99 Kris Zyp Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:16:47 +0000 http://www.neilmix.com/2008/02/26/winter-daze/#comment-99 Wow, I thought we were having a crazy snow year over here in Utah. Our piles of snow only got about 5 or 6 feet tall. But I am with you, all the neighbors can keep their silly snow blowers, shoveling is great break from programming :). Wow, I thought we were having a crazy snow year over here in Utah. Our piles of snow only got about 5 or 6 feet tall. But I am with you, all the neighbors can keep their silly snow blowers, shoveling is great break from programming :).

]]> Comment on Beyond DOM by Natan http://www.neilmix.com/2008/01/06/beyond-dom/#comment-98 Natan Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:39:32 +0000 http://www.neilmix.com/2008/01/06/beyond-dom/#comment-98 you must try data bindings from Adobe Flex! you must try data bindings from Adobe Flex!

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